Audrey Zibelman shares what she’s learned about modernizing the power grid, and how states can advance distributed energy resources.
Audrey Zibelman’s first job as a trial lawyer in a male-dominated firm in Minneapolis wasn’t a good fit. So she moved to the state’s attorney general office, a place known for being more supportive of working mothers like her. But she never would have guessed that the shift would lead her into the power sector. But it did.
After a dynamic career as a utility executive, regulator, and founder, Audrey now serves on corporate boards and in advisory roles where she advocates for designing responsive power systems and focusing on consumers’ needs.
This week on With Great Power, Audrey Zibelman talks about lessons learned and walks Brad Langley through the distributed energy resource (DER) policy and research tools she recently helped develop as part of the Distributed Energy Resources Initiative Advisory Council for the Pew Charitable Trusts. Those tools include a state-by-state policy explorer that tracks how states are advancing DERs, as well as a DER policy playbook.
Credits: Hosted by Brad Langley. Produced by Mary Catherine O’Connor. Edited by Anne Bailey. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor. The GridX production team includes Jenni Barber, Samantha McCabe, and Brad Langley.
Brad Langley: Back in the '80s, well before she was a power sector executive, a regulator, or a renewable energy thought leader, Audrey Zibelman was a young mom working as a trial lawyer in St. Paul, Minnesota. But, it turns out. it wasn't a great fit.
Audrey Zibelman: We were still at the very beginning days of women involved in law firms and in my law firm because I was the only woman, it was a bit challenging for the guys to understand that when I went home, I had two small kids I was taking care of as I had my husband to help, but it's a very different thing when you have babies and you're a trial lawyer
Brad Langley: So when she learned about the position at the Minnesota attorney general's office, she went for it. In part because about a quarter of the lawyers there were women.
Audrey Zibelman: Being able to talk to other young mothers who were also dealing with raising children as well as being a lawyer, it's not that we worked less, but we were more compassionate and understanding of the challenges we all confronted.
Brad Langley: For a few years, she represented the AG's office in matters related to utilities, everything from telecommunications, to electric and gas. Her career took many turns after that, but she always remained focused on energy.
Audrey Zibelman: Because it's a combination of public interest, the environment, as well as economics and engineering. And so for me, it's been a career that's really kept me excited and interested.
Brad Langley: In 1992, Audrey joined the Northern States Power Company, which is now a subsidiary of Xcel Energy. She spent 12 years with the utility, but it was 1998 that stood out. That was the year she began seeing how climate change could impact the power sector.
Audrey Zibelman: We had a very hot summer, but we also had some major storms, and so we lost some power lines and we also lost some generation. And the challenge for us was the fact that Minnesotans were not used to the type of heat we were seeing that summer.
Brad Langley: Minnesota's population was growing fast in the '80s and '90s, and air conditioners had become commonplace. That's a great thing for keeping people comfortable, but not so great for an already stressed out grid.
Audrey Zibelman: We knew we were running out of generation. Could we use some demand programs that we had put in place in Minnesota, particularly around controlling air conditioning, that would help us get through the super peak during the course of the day without compromising people's safety and health?
Brad Langley: These were early days for demand response, but it worked. Northern States Power avoided brownouts, and because people's air conditioners were never off for more than 15 minutes, the home stayed cool.
Audrey Zibelman: That year was sort of an experience of understanding the role of markets and the role of better tools. Subsequent to that, I went to PJM where we would use customer capability — industrial load customers in particular — to provide reserves to turn on or off generation and their willingness to do that, to get compensated for it much like a generator. Help balance the grid in a much more predictable way.
Brad Langley: Then in 2008, Audrey went all in on DR, founding Viridity Energy to develop demand response technology. After that, she turned to regulation, chairing the New York Public Service Commission. Then in 2017, she moved all the way to Australia to become CEO of its energy market operator. She says Australia's support for rooftop solar has been very successful. In parts of the country, it sometimes makes up the single largest source of power.
Audrey Zibelman: The lesson learned for me is that what we need to do about distributed energy resources is you start with incentives and programs, and then people see enough of it and they get engaged and the government has to lean in. We need to make sure we have workforce and workforce training and good jobs. And all that will then get us to a point where you have such rapid adoption and it's so normalized that you don't need the economic incentives anymore because people sort of see the value in themselves and we've made it easy.
Brad Langley: This is With Great Power, a show about the people building the future grid today. I'm Brad Langley.
Some people say utilities are slow to change, that they don't innovate fast enough. And while it might not always seem like the most cutting edge industry, there are lots of really smart people working really hard to make the grid cleaner, more reliable, and customer-centric.
Today, my guest is Audrey Zibelman. These days, she serves on a number of boards and in advisory roles. She also co-chairs the Distributed Energy Resources Initiative Advisory Council for the Pew Charitable Trusts. Last month, the council introduced a state-by-state DER Policy Explorer tool, and it just released another report, the DER Playbook, which offers guidance on modernizing the grid and integrating more renewables. Audrey and I talk about those efforts and why she's so bullish on the power of scaling DERs across the US.
But first, I wanted to know what she thinks about PJM and the utilities in that market today, because they're facing intense pressure from state and federal policymakers to control electricity prices.
Audrey Zibelman: Something that I think that we did in Australia, and I think that the industry has to do better generally, is making sure that as we're thinking about how we design the system for the future, we're using scenario planning — something that frankly, oil companies have done for a long time. And what I mean by this is traditionally the way utilities plan is they look back historically and they say, "Oh, in the last 10 years, this is what's happened to the grid. This is how much solar has been added. This is how much wind. What do we expect to see over the next 10 years?" And then from that, they'll decide the resources we're going to need. I think what we need to think about where PJM needs to go and what we ended up evolving to in Australia was looking at whole-of-system planning. And there's still work to be done, but I think what's directionally in the right way, is thinking about it as saying not just incremental, but if in fact we're able to get this much demand flexibility in at the edge of the system, what would we actually need for transmission and generation?
We're never going to eliminate one or the other, but because we don't ask ourselves the question, we end up having policies that don't really integrate in the system capabilities and the system impacts of looking at alternative technologies and then going about doing it in the right way. And I think that the difference we have now from anywhere we've had since markets have been there is the amount of demand growth we're seeing suggests that the best thing that we can do as a society is to create really robust plans where everyone ... It's a system I used to say, you know: These are electrons. They don't vote. It's actually doing good engineering and good scientific analysis of saying, over the next 10, 15 years, what are we going to need in the system? And then if we look at all the alternatives based on what we know today, what is the most economically efficient way for us to move forward, as well as constraining it for other policies around decarbonization and even putting in price as a constraint, and then using these kind of modeling, using AI better, using an analyst better, to come out with system plans.
And I know that sounds like very much central planning, but if we don't have a view of what's optimum and we leave it to the markets, I think it's just too complicated, too hard, and too fragmented. And so I think, in my view, the states and PJM should get together and say, "Well, let's use the best planning tools that we have to figure out what the ideal is. " And I think that's true. It's what we try to do in Australia and then use policy to help execute against it rather than take policy and then develop the plans against policy.
Brad Langley: So what are the larger lessons here for how IOUs operate and how regulators can better work with them?
Audrey Zibelman: I think one of the things that could be really critical is for the states and the grid operators to be working together to say, "Really, our objectives should be uniform here. We're trying to achieve certain outcomes and we want to do it in the most economic way possible.” And therefore, we need to integrate in both what we can do, achieve on the distribution side, as well as what we need to achieve on the transmission and grid scale side, and then divide plans. You can have long-range plans and always update them. But what I find is that when it's done in an integrated, comprehensive way with all the information out there, you're going to get much better results in terms of how to move forward and then determine from there if there are market reform changes that need to be made to make these plans effectuate, make them on the basis of what you believe is the bet that you want to make as to how we drive the best outcomes for consumers.
And always remember, we're designing these systems around consumer needs, not the needs of suppliers.
Brad Langley: Among your many current board seats and advisory roles, you co-chair the Pew Charitable Trust Distributed Energy Resources Advisory Council. In late March, Pew released a DER state policy explorer. What is this tool and why was it developed?
Audrey Zibelman:
Well, one of the things that we've been working on with Pew is just to look at how do we help states think about what are the best ways forward to incorporate DER and how we operate and plan utilities? The policy explorer really is a great piece of work because it actually puts in one place all the various activities that states have been doing to integrate DER. So it's really incredible. There are over 400 DER policies that have been put in place by the different states in order to incorporate it. And the other thing that we found is 77% of US customers have access to advanced metering infrastructure, which I love since I chair the board of Landis + Gyr, but it shows that we're really poised, but it also is a compendium that any state regulator or anyone could use to seek who's doing what and how do we take advantage of it.
Brad Langley: And so what do you hope the tool will do in terms of impact? What impact would you like to see it have?
Audrey Zibelman: Well, there's two pieces we're doing. So the Pew initiative was launched in ‘24, and it was really designed around what do we need to do to make sure that distributed energy resource capabilities are maximized across the United States, regardless of whether or not… as you know, in the United States, we have some states that have deregulated or they've entered into retail competition. Some states have wholesale competition and some states continue to have vertically integrated utilities. But the fact is, as a power system, it works the same. And not only does it work the same everywhere across the United States, works the same across the world. And if we could use distributed energy resources as a way of helping both make the power system resilient and affordable, are there policies that we could put in place and practices that states can turn to? So the state policy explorer is an information piece.
The other piece of work that we're coming out with, which is being published right now, is essentially what are some things that states might want to do — what we would say is a set of six recommendations that we believe any state should be really looking to, to say, "Look, we're in a point of inflection of our industry and we have technology changes that we want to take advantage of. How do we incorporate those into how we both design and operate and regulate our power systems?"
Brad Langley:
I believe this is the DER playbook you're referencing right now.
Audrey Zibelman: That's right.
Brad Langley: Which, if the timing works out, we'll actually hit the day this episode goes live, which is awesome. So can you maybe go into a bit more detail on some of the recommendations, in your opinion, that kind of carry the most impact of the playbook?
Audrey Zibelman:
Sure. So there are three things that we really are focused on. One is, hey, we need to integrate distributed energy resources into both how we plan the system and operate it. And so it's not just enough to put solar on people's roofs. We've, for example, in Australia where right now solar's been so integrated into the system that they're giving away electricity free in the afternoon. So how do we actually operate it so that we're taking advantage of distributed energy resources of all types, storage, solar, smart thermostats, electric vehicles, anything that a residential or even commercial side can make the system more flexible, how do we take advantage of that in the system and how do we plan for it? The second piece is thinking about, well, what are the barriers then? How do we make permitting easier? I mean, it's really fascinating. So if you go across the country, there are states like Virginia where looking at ways to get the timing for permitting down to minutes.
In Hawaii, there's different resources that people are using. And so the question is, well, what are people doing and how do we make that work everywhere? Because again, these should be things that we could solve. And so rather than it taking weeks to lake up your solar or months, can we get it down to hours or days if it's a system that's a typical system? So how do we make it easy and cheap? Because that takes soft costs out. The other pieces is how do we use it for resiliency? If we have these resources available, we want to make sure that when we're operating a system like in times that we've seen where people where lights went out or had these storms, if DER is available… We saw that in New York City during Sandy, the ability to use distributed resources that NYU had kind of put a beacon of light in the lower Manhattan where everything else was dark.
But how do we make that work for folks and make the system stronger? So the things that we focus on are different policy matters. We survey the states to see who's doing what. And the objective really is then to have a playbook that any regulator could look at and say, Here are the things that we need to put in place so that distributed energy resources capabilities can be maximized through the system and could be used really for the benefit of customers to again, again, driving what should be a very neutral position for anyone or an acceptable position for anyone. We want the system to be reliable. We want it to be affordable. We want it to be safe.
Brad Langley: Are you seeing any examples where a state or states have done a good job removing barriers to DER adoption?
Audrey Zibelman: Yeah. I mean, one of the things I really love is, so last year Texas passed, I think it's State Build 1202, and it really is a national model to include DER into the utility planning. I mean, one of the things that I, even when I was in New York, utilities were struggling because people wanted to put solar on the roof. There just weren't enough people to do permitting. They've done a Texas that said, "Look, we'll standardize it. We'll allow third parties to do it. We'll train them." And that way you have a bigger workforce to do it. You don't need to have just the utility to do the permitting approval and we can set a target to reduce the time. I think that kind of thinking about like, how do we get this so it's easy and how do we get the workforce expanded so it's not just the utility is exactly the type of program that I would love to see everywhere.
And frankly, with the Pew work, I hope people look at that and say, "Well, if it works in Texas, it should work here, right?"
Brad Langley: We don't call it a playbook for nothing, right?
Audrey Zibelman:
That's right. And there's lots of examples of that of other states. And that's what I find particularly exciting about the work we've done is being able to draw on the research to say what commissioners may not be able to do, which is spend time thinking about what others have done that have actually worked.
Brad Langley: We call this show with Great Power, which is a nod to the energy industry. It's also a famous Spider-Man quote, "With great power comes great responsibility." So Audrey, as someone who's been in this space for a very long time, I'm curious, what superpower or superpowers do you bring to the energy transition?
Audrey Zibelman: Look, I think for me, the biggest superpower I've had is my passion for seeing that we can get it done better. Using curiosity and also an optimism that based on experience that we can always do better has been something I've been able to bring to every job. And as a result of that, I think we've had measured success. And one of the proudest things that I've ever done is thinking about what we did in New York over REV. And then when we went to Australia, we went from a power system that had 150,000 to 200,000 rooftop solar to now one in three Australians have rooftop solar. But more importantly, we've been able to demonstrate that by embracing the energy transition and doing change to accommodate the fact that it is complex, it is new technology, but it can drive a better result for consumers, you achieve better outcomes at less risk.
Brad Langley: Excellent. Well, Audrey, it was wonderful having you on the show. Thank you so much for your time.
Audrey Zibelman: Thank you.
Brad Langley: Audrey Zibelman is an energy industry executive and advisor. With Great Power is produced by GridX in partnership with Latitude Studios. Delivering on our clean energy future is complex. GridX exists to simplify the journey. GridX is the enterprise rate platform that modern utilities rely on to usher in our clean energy future. We design and implement emerging race structures and we increase consumer investment in clean energy, all while managing the complex billing needs of a distributed grid.
Mary Catherine O'Connor produced the show. Anne Bailey is our senior editor. Stephen Lacey is our executive editor. Sean Marquand composed the original theme song and mixed the show. The GridX production team includes Jenny Barber, Samantha McCabe, and me, Brad Langley. If this show is providing value for you and we really hope it is, we'd love it if you could help us spread the word. You can rate or review us at Apple and Spotify, or you can share a link with a friend, colleague, or the energy nerd in your life.
As always, thanks so much for listening. I'm Brad Langley.